Dr. Anne-Marie Slaughter: The Lightning Rod

A CONVERSATION WITH THE ATLANTIC’S DR. ANNE-MARIE SLAUGHTER

Lisa Heidman LL.B.
Senior Client Partner, The Bedford Consulting Group,
North American Director of Bedford Legal

Anne-Marie Slaughter is one of the world’s most respected thought leaders in international relations, and most recently on gender issues and equality as a business issue. In January 2009, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton announced the appointment of Dr. Slaughter as the new Director of Policy Planning under the Obama administration. From 2009-2011, Dr. Slaughter served as Director of Policy Planning for the United States Department of State, the first woman to hold that position.

Prior to her government service, Dr. Slaughter was the Dean of Princeton’s Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs from 2002-2009 and the J. Sinclair Armstrong Professor of International, Foreign, and Comparative Law at Harvard Law School from 1994-2002, and was a Professor at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government from 2001-2002. She is also the Bert G. Kerstetter ’66 University Professor Emerita of Politics and International Affairs at Princeton University. Dr. Slaughter received a B.A. from Princeton, and an M.Phil and D.Phil in international relations from Oxford, where she was a Daniel M. Sachs Scholar, and a J.D. from Harvard.

Dr. Slaughter has written numerous books and over 100 scholarly articles, provides frequent commentary for both mainstream and new media, and curates foreign policy news for over 85,000 followers on Twitter. She appears regularly on CNN, the BBC, NPR, PBS, TED Talks and lectures to academic, civic and corporate audiences. Foreign Policy Magazine named Dr. Slaughter to its annual list of the Top 100 Global Thinkers in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012. Dr. Slaughter is married to Professor Andrew Moravcsik, and lives in Princeton, New Jersey, with their two teenage sons.

Dr. Slaughter’s life changed dramatically in June 2012, when she wrote the iconic, controversial and candid article in The Atlantic Magazine, “Why Women Still Can’t Have It All.” The article became a lightning rod for discussion about and for senior executive women in business, and the choices, obstacles and challenges we each face, personally and professionally, in this current economy and at this time in history.
The Atlantic magazine published Dr. Slaughter’s article in its July/August 2012 edition. The article documents her own journey and decision to leave the State Department after concluding that “juggling high-level government work with the needs of two teenage boys was not possible.” She was commuting from New Jersey to Washington every week, leaving the house at 4:20 am on Monday, and arriving back late on Friday night, and decided after her 14-year-old son was developing issues at school, that this was just not tenable for her or for her family.

Within the first few days of its publication, the controversial and influential article swiftly hit the front pages of The New York Times and quickly became the most read article in the history of the Atlantic magazine, with over 2 million hits on its website, attracting attention and resonating with many, on the issues of work/life balance and the challenges for many senior executive women.

The Atlantic article resonated with many senior women who were also working 15-18 hour days, and had not yet figured out ways to integrate their personal and family commitments against a punishing work schedule and were searching to find a way to have a significant career and connection to family too. It was lambasted by others who felt Dr. Slaughter was “opting out” or was professing some desire for a utopian view that women should have it all, amongst multiple other criticisms. It was also welcomed by many, as a courageous, insightful and candid description of the issues facing many executive women in today’s corporate environment. The article opened the doors for much discussion, most poignantly for many, among their peers and their own mothers and daughters on their own choices and journeys—and, most importantly, it has furthered the discussion on solutions that could change the game for all.

The viral spread of Dr. Slaughter’s article, cross generationally and globally, in conjunction with the recent release of Lean In: Women, Work and the Will to Lead, by Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook, has contributed to a renewed international and timely debate on the continued opportunities, challenges and obstacles to genuine male-female equality in the workplace. In April 2013, Dr. Slaughter was appointed the new President and CEO of the New America Foundation, a public policy institute and idea incubator based in Washington and New York.

Dr. Slaughter is currently writing a highly anticipated book to be published in the spring of 2014.
In October 2013, Dr. Slaughter attended Women of Influence’s Senior Executive Dinner in Washington D.C.. This was followed by an interview with her in NYC, where WOI had the opportunity to explore her experience since the publication of the article and her views on the issues, challenges and opportunities facing senior executive women in business today. We explored why the conversation on these issues and the business case for diversity matters, with a view to providing solutions to change the game for corporations and organizations, while supporting our individual choices and creating new opportunities for each and all of us.

Lisa: I wanted to pick up on our dinner conversation where you had begun to tell us the story of how your article in The Atlantic came about. What drove you to write it and why?

Anne-Marie: I wanted to write this article for a while. I had certainly been living it, as had many of my peers and senior women colleagues. A good friend talked me out of it initially, and I thought well, you’re right, I actually can’t really do this, it would be breaking the code of successful career women if I did. We just do not talk about it, at least publicly. We never break the code of saying “Yes, you can do it all, if you just try hard enough and want it bad enough.” Then I went out and talked to a younger group of students and they said, you know, you really should write about this. We want to talk about this too, and that made me think, well maybe I should. I knew it mattered and started to understand that it also mattered to others.

Lisa: Can you share what happened when the article hit publication?

Anne Marie I cannot describe how dramatically it turned my life upside down. I was well known in foreign policy circles, but within a week, people who met me, anywhere I went, suddenly knew me as the woman who had written this article on why women still can’t have it all, and it almost completely erased any other identity I ever had. I was in Scotland with my family at the time it was released, on a combined speaking engagement and family trip, and started getting emails about it immediately. We flew back, and when I landed, there was Jodi Kantor’s June 21st front‑‑page article in The New York Times about Sheryl Sandberg’s views in Lean In and my own in The Atlantic. Immediately upon arrival, my mother phoned me and said, as only a mother could, “What have you done?” We still laugh about that.

Lisa: I know this is the most viewed article for The Atlantic in its history, do you know how far it has reached world-wide?

Anne Marie There was an article published about it in a newspaper in the Arctic Circle. A friend told me her mother was reading it in Saudi Arabia. A student told me they were discussing it in Burundi, Africa. I’ve had interview requests from Brazil, India, Japan, Israel and Australia, and someone else sent me another article about it from Thailand. The global nature of it, and the impact and interest in these issues, it just stunned me.

Lisa: When you think about what’s happening on the front pages of The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Globe and Mail, The Financial Post, with now daily coverage on women on boards, disclosure requirements vs. quotas, the debate about work/life balance and the business case for diversity. What do you attribute this tsunami of interest in the Atlantic article, Sandberg’s Lean In, and the renewed conversation on these issues?

Anne Marie: It is hard to pinpoint exactly why the article went viral, but I think there are a couple things. First, I think it resonated with many and secondly, it was just the right moment to spark an inter-generational conversation that had been burgeoning between women my age, and say 10-15 years older than I, and their daughters, that just hadn’t quite taken off. These women and mothers are the first generation who fought incredibly hard for the opportunity to work and have raised their daughters to believe that they can do everything, absolutely everything, without obstacles. The encouragement to do and try everything—get on sports teams, seek a secondary or a doctorate education, be the next CEO—this has contributed to the vast increase in law, business and medical school student parity with close to half the graduating class from these programs being women.

Then there are our daughters and sons of the younger generation. They see a different landscape and they don’t see one where women are being shut out. They see a landscape of women who are trying to be career women and are not able to have the family lives they want.

It all really hit in the moment where young women were incredibly hungry for someone to open up this conversation, about the choices, the obstacles and then the solutions, and a few of us had just enough experience and stature to be able to do it. Their mothers, sisters, aunts, suddenly were engaged in the conversation and it kind of ripped open the discussion in a way that was very important. At the same time, I think those older women, myself included, were able to say for all this progress we’ve made, we’re still not really there. When you look at the statistics on boards and CEOs and senior executives of Fortune 500 companies, very little has changed at the top.

We have made an enormous amount of progress, but the idea that if we just keep thinking that if we carry along doing, what we have been doing, that we will get there is not the case. In fact the reality is that the numbers have stalled. There has to be a different way, a new conversation, and new solutions. This is what Sheryl Sandberg has said, and what many women have been saying, including myself. Sheryl and I just have a different perspective on both the causes and the solutions for these issues.

Lisa: I think it’s unfortunate that we haven’t yet created an environment between us, as successful women, where there can be more than one perspective and an open discussion and debate on what are clearly complex business and societal issues, globally. I know you have experienced some judgment from people who were highly critical about what you wrote, and that you even wrote it, as opposed to saying there is room for different views, choices, experiences and solutions. The controversy alone regarding Jodi Kantor’s New York Times article, seemingly pitting you and Sheryl against each other, so to speak, as opposed to saying there is a lot of alignment between the two of you and also room for disagreement. What are your views on this?

Anne Marie: I have several views. First, this is in no way a cat fight, nor do I like that term. This is what everyone is trying to avoid, a media representation of women squabbling amongst each other. Many people were upset with Jodi Kantor for writing that piece and for placing photos of Sheryl Sandberg and I opposed to each other. However, Jodi Kantor’s response, for which I have a lot of respect, was wait just a minute, this is not a cat fight but it is a real debate. Sheryl Sandberg gave a TED talk about Lean In, and while I agree with a lot of what she said, I do think there is perhaps another approach here. Sandberg is telling women that it is up to them to succeed, and in my experience, and in the experience of many of my senior peers, that is, and was, simply not the case. I do differ with Sheryl in that what she sees as the issue is an ambition gap. I see much less of an ambition gap with women than I see obstacles to achieving those ambitions. We do see different parts of the elephant, and I’m not saying that both aren’t true, but we do differ in emphasis.

Jodi Kantor’s point was when men have debates, nobody says it’s a dog fight, they say they are having a debate and debate is how we make progress in our society. So I respect Sheryl’s view that you don’t want to feed narratives of a feud between women, but I also respect Jodi Kantor’s view that says that we have got to be able to have a debate among two strong, powerful women just like we have debates among powerful men all the time.
Sandberg wrote a book that is very seductive in my view, because everyone wants to believe these things are within their own control, and people want to believe that if I just do the right thing, if I work harder, if I lean in, I will not face these obstacles. What I am saying is that no one is, or has been, more committed to their career than I am. Even with that commitment, 24/7, I hit a situation where my work happened to be in a different place than my home, and I had a kid who had difficulties at school, and this is one of the difficulties that women encounter, in business and in life, as do men.

Whether you have a child at home, an aging or sick parent to care for, a marriage and family to nurture, these are all breadwinning and caregiving issues and I don’t believe our corporate or societal values and structures as they exist today support these equally or effectively. I see much of the discussion on work/life balance as an issue about breadwinners and caregivers, and because the majority of caregivers may be women, these discussions are often guised as women’s issues, when actually, when men are caregivers, they face these exact same kinds of problems. These are not women’s issues. These are business, family and societal issues, and they need to be discussed, addressed and resolved.

Lisa: As you know Anne-Marie, WOI is dedicated to highlighting the successes and learnings of senior executive leaders. Speaking of powerful women and inspirational leaders, what was Hillary Clinton like as a boss?
Anne-Marie: Hillary was a great boss. She is very inspirational, and I can assure you, no one works harder than Hillary Clinton does. What is also inspirational about Hillary is that you really know what she has been through to accomplish all that she has achieved. She has been a great mentor, boss, and friend and was one of the first to reach out to me when the article and its controversy hit the press. When people were criticizing me, I would think to myself: I worked for Hillary Clinton. What I’m going through now is one millionth of what she has been through, and then I would just let it all roll off my back. At the root of what makes Hillary Clinton so inspirational as a leader is that she gets up every single day and focuses on: How can I do the best job possible to make the world a better place for everyone? It is a very “others” focused approach. It is this
Dr. Anne-Marie Slaughter, President and Chief Executive Officer, The New America Foundation, and Lisa Heidman, Senior Client Partner, The Bedford Consulting Group, at Women of Influence’s Senior Executive Dinner, Washington, D.C., October 2013. larger purpose of hers and the clarity she has that she is working in the service of, and for, others. That is the definition of what inspirational leadership is all about.

Lisa: There is a real possibility that Hillary might run for President. How important do you think it is both practically and symbolically that Hillary Clinton runs and is elected as the next President of the United States?

Anne-Marie: I don’t think there is a single more important thing that could happen in my lifetime than to have an American woman President. Having a leader who is not afraid to stand up for who they are is essential. Hillary is going to be who she is, authentically and inspirationally for so many. I don’t think there is anything more significant for the US than a woman becoming President, because until we have a woman President, it is the ultimate glass ceiling. As long as that ceiling hasn’t been broken, you know we haven’t made it. In the very same way, as long as these numbers stay the same at the board, CEO, and senior executive levels within Fortune 500 companies, until these statistics change dramatically, you know we haven’t made it.

Lisa: What do you think is going to change the opportunities for women to increase their presence on boards and at the senior executive tables across North America? What specifically do you think is going to be part of the solution to change the current state we are in?

Anne Marie I think it’s going to take a combination of carrots and sticks. As a start, I think what you spoke so passionately about at the WOI Senior Executive Dinner in Washington Lisa, really matters. That is the business case for diversity, and the importance of diversity of thought at the table, for business globally. These continued discussions will, and do, drive change for business, government and organizations on these issues. Innovative businesses and leaders understand that diversity is a business differentiator and is going to put them at the forefront, and drive business results.

The evidence for this business case for women at the board and executive tables is really strong—not just for women, but for business, governments and organizations around the world. It has been proven psychologically, economically, and sociologically, so I think we just have to keep making that case over and over again so that it isn’t about historical discrimination or remediation. It is about the smart path. The successful companies of the future, now understand that this is the smart thing to do, as much as it’s the right thing to do.

As for changing behavior of organizations and businesses, there are a bunch of carrots and a lot of incentives you can offer, but I also do think we have to recognize that for women to take their place in equal numbers on boards, a lot of men are going to have to give up these same positions. This is where the rubber hits the road, as it’s not just an expanding pie of board and CEO seats. There are men who will not be on boards, or sitting at the CEO or executive level, so that women can. This is why you need not only carrots, but why I think it is also important to have sticks, to change the results.

Although people may want something in the abstract, even when it makes good business sense, it comes down to giving up something that they also want, and have long held. That’s why you need laws and disclosure requirements, as you need pressure to bring about change. I am not saying you need quotas, but you certainly need real pressure, as the idea that we are just going to get there because this would be a “good thing” for everyone—it’s just not going to happen on its own.

Lisa: I couldn’t agree more. It’s going to take a combination of both to make change in our current business structure—understanding the business case for diversity and the need to transform existing processes and decision-making to ensure that all of the best executive leaders have similar opportunities.

I am supportive of disclosure requirements, to encourage change and place focus on the issue. Even more so, I am an advocate of competency based decision-making and rigorous due diligence processes, at the board and executive level, to ensure that the very best and most qualified candidates, both men and women, have the opportunity to be considered and to lead in all sectors, and at all levels. Leading at, and from, different levels of an organization addresses another issue that you have written about Anne-Marie, which is your work and analysis on the “Ladder or the Web,” which explores whether real power in our organizational and business structures, today and in the future, will remain at the top, or rather whether power structures will lead from the middle, as the hub of the wheel or the center of the web. This change, too, may provide an opportunity for many.

Anne-Marie: Hierarchies globally are quickly giving way to networks in industry (think value chains and the Star Alliance), civil society (global human rights and environmental networks) and government (the G-8 and the G-20 versus the UN Security Council). The ability to operate effectively in a horizontal web of relationships (a network of networks) is more important and effective than ever. Part of what has happened, in terms of the ladder and the web, is that the corporate world has been talking about shifting from hierarchies to networks for 20 years and the most successful corporations have already done so—they have moved from command and control to vertically integrated hierarchies to webs of co-production.

Look at Boeing, with its global web of value creators, or any of the firms that have global supply chains that are now much more horizontal, where people are actually co-participating in the design and delivery of the companies’ products. This is not about women and men, this is about the way the world is moving in a globalized economy and about innovative business culture and leadership.
When men are caregivers, they face these exact same kinds of problems. These are not women’s issues. These are business, family and societal issues, and they need to be discussed, addressed and resolved.

Lisa: The network also has everything to do with what WOI, and Three Degrees: Board and Executive NetworkTM (an alliance partner of WOI and Bedford), is about. That is, providing platforms and opportunities for board and senior executives to network within their networks, to seek their next board and executive roles, and to share in their business knowledge, learnings and best practices to do so. I am a big believer that most senior executives’ next board and executive roles are sitting in their networks’ networks, as are creative business partnerships, alliances and solutions for business broader. Both just need the strategic methodology and tools to navigate these opportunities effectively.

Anne Marie That’s the wave of the future Lisa, and all of these connected networks will provide an opportunity for so many. I absolutely want to see 250 women CEOs in the Fortune 500, and I am and will do everything I can do to support this and will always be dedicated to doing so. I would equally like to see both women and men re-defining success, and creating opportunities for others, by building coalitions and networks to solve problems, creating public-private partnerships, and connecting and mobilizing alliances of many diverse actions, to turn talk into action. It has to happen at the corporate, government and organizational level too, but leading from the center is every bit as much the exercise of power and leadership as sitting at the top of a vast hierarchy hoping that orders get transmitted properly to the levels below. It also speaks to centered leadership, personally and professionally, which is absolutely core to what these issues and discussions are about.

What’s important is that we don’t drop out, and we don’t get out of the game. Find a way to stay in the game, and to change it for you and for others, perhaps even more influentially.

Lisa: There clearly are other options and definitions of success, beyond climbing the corporate ladder, and that includes many senior women who have chosen their own entrepreneurial path. Finding new ways of defining success, both personally and professionally, is important for each and all of us, and that’s also part of transforming corporate leadership broader.

Anne Marie Re-defining new metrics, models, and the definition of success is not just important for women. It is important for women and men, who want to be whole, centered, and happy human beings. That means being whole in mind and body, reason and emotion, work and family. It’s time to change the game for everyone.

Lisa: As an observation, what you have done since you left the State Department was to engage people in a global conversation and, if I may note, you’ve actually moved from one demanding full-time job to a new one. Can you tell us a little bit about your new role with the Foundation?

Anne Marie In the first place, I never for a single minute opted-out. I left the government for a full-time tenured position at Princeton, and I have always worked more than full-time. I have moved into a new CEO role and it is exactly what I wrote about hoping to do. It’s a CEO role where the value is that I control my own time. If you control your own time, just about everything is possible. It is a much smaller organization than many I might have been able to run. This organization is 180 people, small enough that I can really be hands-on and entrepreneurial, and big enough that I think I can make an impact. I tell all women and men, all my students and mentees, that it’s so important that you follow your heart, to do the work that calls you and that you feel passionate about. Following your heart in terms of those you love, and the work that you love to do, is the key. If you can fit these both together, I think there are no obstacles to what you can do.

Lisa: The solution is being aware of and understanding what is going to work for you and your family, and to evaluate this regularly, over time. I think timing is important, as what might have worked for me at 35 might not at 45, or 55. Learning to give oneself the permission to make these different choices and still be a CEO, maybe in a different venue, or at a different time in one’s career, provides so many more options and opportunities. It would be great if we could each give ourselves the space to look at what’s working for us at different times in our careers, and in our lives, and what’s not, while working together to change the corporate and organizational structures to support these choices for everyone.

Anne Marie I could not agree more. Another theme I discussed in my book is don’t drop out, defer. What you just said, Lisa, is really important, in that we all have different needs, at different times in our lives and our careers. We will all be healthier and happier and ultimately more successful, if both women and men recognize that the key thing is that you may find a time where you say “I cannot work this way, work this hard and be the partner or parent I want to be.” What’s important is that we don’t drop out, and we don’t get out of the game. Find a way to stay in the game, and to change it for you and for others, perhaps even more influentially. Learn to work differently and create and lead your own business and career path. Just don’t stop working, don’t stop doing, just work smarter to make your mark and a difference.

Lisa: It takes courage to stand up and share your own views and experiences. Thank you Anne-Marie for being a lightning rod and for furthering this important conversation for so many of us.

Lisa Heidman, L.L.B, Senior Client Partner, The Bedford Consulting Group, North American Director of Bedford Legal, brings over 15 years of Legal, Board and Executive Search experience working with Boards and their Senior Leadership Teams, placing Board, CEO and C-Suite Executives across functions, globally. Lisa is also President and CEO of Three Degrees: Board and Executive NetworkTM, an alliance Partner of Women of Influence and The Bedford Consulting Group. Appointed to the Board of Directors of Women of Influence in 2009. Lisa can be reached at lheidman@bedfordgroup.com